Fight Fans! Irish Fans! Irish Fans That Like Fighting! Welcome to Round 1 of a scheduled 5 between Team Rees, represented by Tyler Moorehead, and Team Golson , represented by me, Steve Herring. Learn a little more about Tyler in Sunday’s Press Release. Our names link to Twitter accounts … so go follow us.
Basic Rules:
- Tommy is eligible for all games in 2012.
- It’s boxing themed so this series will feature two men in the ring (sorry Hendrix & Kiel fans, but it’s a long summer and we haven’t forgotten about you. Grab some popcorn and enjoy the carnage.)
- Two ”Burning Question” per round, ten questions total. The “teams” have been asked to keep answers in the 350-450 word range, but it won’t be too strictly enforced.
- This is NOT a roundtable. Tyler & myself won’t be going back and forth, but rather answering the questions independently. As Mike Lee told us about his opponent on ESPN’s Friday Night Fights this week - “It’s not about him. It’s about me.”
- You (readers, fans) are the judges. Post a scorecard, throw in the towel, declare a winner, complain that it’s neither of these guys, tell us we’re idiots. Whatever, but please share below.
QUESTION #1: How important is a mobile QB to Brian Kelly’s ideal offense? Where would we see the difference and/or improvement of Golson v. Rees.
Tyler Moorehead (Team Rees): I think that there is nothing more exaggerated than the supposed need for a mobile quarterback in Brian Kelly’s feared spread attack. Look, there is absolutely no question that being a running threat adds a whole extra dimension to any offense, but that tends to be an added bonus more than anything else. Brian Kelly’s offense has never been about taking off and running — it is about making smart, sharp decisions and getting the ball out very quickly. Ability to read and assess defenses swiftly and identify the open receiver is so much more important than having extreme escapability.
The best offense that Brian Kelly ever coached was led by Cincinnati quarterback Tony Pike (stats). In 22 games (his junior and senior seasons — he only threw 20 passes in his first two years) he had less than stellar rushing totals: 53 yards on 87 carries, for a 0.6 yards per carry average. Now, to be fair, roughly half of those were sacks (The Bearcats allowed 31 sacks in 2008 & 15 sacks in 2009) so Pike’s true rushing average isn’t quite so low. Conversely though, that means Tony Pike only actually ran about 40 times in 22 games, on two teams that went to the BCS. If a quarterback is only going to scramble roughly two times a game, then clearly his mobility is not a priority.
It is important here to acknowledge the presence of Zach Collaros, the quarterback who took over for four full games when Tony Pike went down with an injury in 2009 (stats). Collaros had a very Andrew Hendrix-like build and showcased the ability to run the ball very effectively. The Cincinnati offense absolutely lit up the scoreboard in those four games. This is where the idea that a mobile quarterback is crucial to Brian Kelly’s spread originated. However, it is important to note that despite Collaros’ unbelievable play and obvious physical (i.e. mobility) advantages, Brian Kelly gave the quarterback job back to Pike when he was healthy again. Kelly sided with the experience and more developed ability to read defenses rather than purely physical attributes.
Now it is clear that Tommy Rees is more like Tony Pike than Zach Collaros, and Golson, while clearly different from Collaros, brings the ability to run to the table. It is absolutely fair to say that right now Tommy Rees is much better than Everett Golson at making quick reads of the defense, which is something that is developed over time and only with in-game experience. Because of this, Rees is better suited to step in and lead the offense, because quick reads and throws are the most important part of Brian Kelly’s offense. We already saw that Kelly sided with experience over athleticism once, and I would expect him to do so again this fall.
Steve Herring (Team Golson): We must start by pointing out that Tommy Rees isn’t just “not mobile”, he’s completely immobile. “Mobile” indicates above average athleticism at the quarterback position; this covers anybody from Andrew Luck to Colt McCoy to Michael Vick. His inability to move the pocket even five yards or make a small rushing gain when the field opens has been a detriment to countless drives and scoring opportunities during his time at the helm. I’m sure much will be made this week about Rees’s knowledge of the playbook trumping Golson (who allegedly has struggled to digest it), but how many of football’s most basic plays are already off the table with Rees in the huddle? Staples of the game, not just Brian Kelly’s spread, such as deep roll-outs and slow developing screen passes are out. Don’t even get us started on actually eluding a defender on occasion … or a speed option.
Stepping into the actual questions for Team Golson, I’m going to concede that having a “mobile” quarterback isn’t paramount to running the offense efficiently at a high pace, but having one that can make athletic maneuvers is. Know the difference. Kelly’s offense, like many offenses, doesn’t require an elite playmaker calling the plays, but the presence of one is always an added bonus. Quarterbacks that need to be accounted for by opposing defenses have the tendency to make offenses much more lethal. That would clearly be the case when Everett Golson is taking the snap over one Tommy Rees. Brian Kelly does prefer to include the option when attacking and depending on situations he’d like to lean on it. Tommy voids this entire portion of the game plan. Is the section of plays Tommy can’t run as big as the one Everett isn’t comfortable in yet? Only one of those two problems can be solved. Golson, who possesses a stronger arm anyways, can run option and misdirection plays that achieve their goal – getting defenders out of position.
With Everett Golson commandeering the Irish attack in 2012, the differences and improvement could be staggering. He adds entirely new dimensions to the field with his arm and his legs. Defenses, despite facing Michael Floyd, didn’t respect Tommy’s deep passing game and needn’t worry with assigning a defender to the quarterback. When Golson flips that script you’ll see coverages that are softer because of Golson’s cannon and defensive schemes that consistently include either a) fewer defenders in coverage or b) fewer pass rushers attacking. You know what happens when a linebacker or safety is assigned to the quarterback & defensive ends are slow-playing contain? The QB has all day to find the mismatch and all his weapons are one-on-one. Somebody is getting open on an easy read.
QUESTION #2: How much does the brutal schedule impact the 2012 QB decision for Brian Kelly?
Tyler Moorehead (Team Rees): I think the 2012 schedule plays a humongous role in Brian Kelly’s quarterback decision. It is never easy to give any quarterback their first game experience, no matter how talented the quarterback may be (look at Jimmy Clausen’s entire freshman season). It gets even harder when you are playing quality opponents, and even though Navy and Purdue are some of the easier games on this year’s slate, they are definitely not slouches, especially when you consider the Navy game takes place in far-from-normal circumstances by being played in Ireland. Because of the difficulty of the schedule as a whole, and due to the fact that the team will be thrown right into the fire, I think Brian Kelly considers starting any quarterback other than Tommy Rees as too big of a risk, and one that he is unwilling to take.
It is no secret that experience matters big time in college football, particularly for quarterbacks. And I think most people, if they are being honest with themselves, realize that it would be suicide to send a guy with little or no experience out at Michigan State, or versus a Michigan team led by Heisman-hopeful Denard Robinson. Need I even mention Oklahoma (senior Landry Jones), BYU (a BCS dark horse), or USC (a disgusting popular national championship pick led by Matt Barkley)? There’s a good chance that if we sent an unprepared quarterback out there for those games, not only we return home empty-handed, but those losses could get so out hand that the quarterback can’t take anything from the game period. There is such a thing as learning on the fly and taking hard knocks and getting back up, but that doesn’t happen when you throw a quarterback into almost certain failure. You can’t afford to shake up a young quarterback’s confidence for nothing.
Even if you are not a Tommy Rees supporter, you have to acknowledge that he has been through the fire before. He has played at USC, at Michigan, at Stanford (led by Andrew Luck), a good Utah squad at home, not to mention been in bowl games against Miami and Florida State. Yes, he was only 3-3 in those games, but having that game experience will pay dividends this year.
Bottom line — If you are playing the toughest schedule in the country, (Feldman, CBS) would you feel more confident facing it with a guy with a 12-4 record as a starter and 20 games under his belt in total, or a redshirt freshman who has never taken in a single snap in college? The schedule makes this decision a no-brainer for Brian Kelly.
Steve Herring (Team Golson): This question is a crutch of sorts for Rees defenders because they can claim that his experience at the Big House or the Coliseum trumps the need to develop players with superior skill sets. The problem with that defense? He’s not been getting better in what we would classify as “big games” and the 2012 schedule is packed with them. His stats in the last three “big games”? Versus USC, Stanford & Florida St. in 2011 Tommy totaled 0 Passing TDs, 4 INTs, -32 yards rushing, 1 fumble.
FIVE Turnovers, ZERO TDs in his last three “big games” (2 of which were his most recent) and this makes him the clear choice to head into more big games in 2012? Why? Do you think that an inexperienced player who brings more to the table in every facet of quarterbacking but one would produce worse numbers? We at Team Golson sure as hell don’t think so.
Yes – the 2012 schedule (packed with superpowers and their lofty preseason rankings) plays a very important role in Brian Kelly’s decision inasmuch that he needs to select the best player before Week 1. As I already dissected on this site, the 2012 schedule is pretty much status quo for a Notre Dame Head Football Coach. We assume Brian Kelly is approaching it with a desire to put his quarterback and team in the best possible situation to win every game. That would include calling on #5 in August and allowing his elite passing skills to stretch the field and, maybe more importantly, create much bigger spaces in the 2nd level for a stable of running backs and tight ends that should be a match-up nightmare for even the stiffest of this fall’s competition.
As many ND fans have noticed, the 2012 schedule is actually tailored more towards starting a young quarterback than any in recent memory. The Irish haven’t opened with two straight non-powers since 2002 (Maryland-Purdue) and even then Maryland was a preseason #18 that went 11-3. This season kicks off with Navy (in Dublin, Ireland) & Purdue. These programs, both rebuilding, combined to get slaughtered by the Irish 94-24 back in 2011. All four QBs on this roster should win these games, but a new starter would face his first rival, first travel, first experience at home, and all that other crap they tell us is important before September’s tail end against the Spartans and Wolverines. Michigan State is a team that lost its iconic quarterback and best defensive player, DT Jerel Worthy, and got run over in 2011 by an 0-2 Irish team. They could easily get surprised by a new Everett Golson-led assault and we’re 3-0 awaiting Denard’s final South Bend tour filled with Blue & Gold momentum, emerging offensive stars, and a Top 20 ranking. I don’t know if I see this happening with Tommy Rees at quarterback.
(Bell Rings) End of Round 1
Steve & Tyler are back to their corners (see: laptops) and will have two more questions to battle out tomorrow. Again, feel free to judge the fight below and throw in your own opinions on these questions and players.
Go.Irish.
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Steve Herring is the Editor-in-Chief of HerringBoneSports.com and also hosts TNNDN’s Down the Line. As the TNNDN Network President he acts as Executive Producer of four Notre Dame related shows. Steve worked in broadcasting at Madison Square Garden Media and the Arena Football League. You can find all his articles and radio show links on this site. Contact Steve on Twitter @HB_Sports or e-mail HerringBoneSports@gmail.com |
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Rees doesn’t have Pike’s arm, poor comparison. Look back at how Callaros flourished in that offense, mobile QB’s = better weapons. Golson has a stronger, more accurate arm and the running ability can not even be compared. Talk experience all you want, but if Rees could manage to go 4-0 when thrown into the fire as a freshman why couldn’t Golson have similar success? Add that to the fact that Rees regressed last year and this isn’t even a fight. Stay down, Tyler! Stay down!
Of course Golson could have similar success as a sophomore that Rees did as a freshman. Great point.
KyNDFan what evidence do you have that Everett is more accurate, if you’ve never seen him real game action?!? Things change come gametime. Rees was able to go 4-0 as a freshman because he was mentally prepared to step on the field (being an early enrollee helped), something that is still a huge question mark for Golson. Every interview mentions his constant inability to grasp the playbook, and THAT is why you should not expect similar results from Golson right away.
I am a huge Golson fan as well, but am also one to preach patience…it doesn’t make sense to put Golson in before he is ready, or else fans will sour on him just like they did Hendrix, and it will be on to Gunner.
As mentioned – Golson’s ability to comprehend the playbook is fixable and likely on track. Rees problems as an athlete are less fixable. We always refer to Golson’s accuracy based of phenomenal high school passing stats in a very elite North Carolina division. All the video we’ve seen of him show a player with innate touch on his deep ball, something we haven’t seen since Clausen to Tate/Floyd. This could change everything.
I actually disagree with this a lot. Golson’s knowledge of the playbook is significantly behind where he should be after a year and a half with the team (he early enrolled as well). If he actually knew what he was doing in the huddle calling plays and he was running the team efficiently purely from a leadership standpoint, this wouldn’t be a competition as all. But at this point he is still lost. He even mentioned after the BG game that his head was spinning trying to do everything.
Also, it’s just the reality that all of these players were superstars in high school, dominating their opponents, so of course he looked super accurate. Check out Tommy Rees highlight tapes if you don’t believe me. That isnnt to take anything away from Everett, because he WAS incredible. But it is close-minded to compare Everett’s play in high school to Tommy’s in college. Huge difference.
The stuff with the playbook applies to both Golson, Hendrix, and Kiel. No reporter or blogger on planet earth has any inkling of what he knows in regards to the playbook.
If we want to project that Tommy Rees will be improved as a sophomore running the ball and avoiding turnovers, why are we claiming that Golson, who was #4 on the depth chart in spring 2011, the scout team QB in Fall 2011, and is really just moved back into regular 1st unit reps this past spring is incapable of understanding the offense at a quality level by Sept 1st?? You can’t have it both ways Rees fans.
Round one to Steve. No question.
-Tommy cannot be expected to take any sorts of steps forward at this point. Defenses keyed in on his skill set late in the year and just dropped 7 or 8 into coverage every time we lined up in an empty set. He seemingly couldn’t hit a single pass over 30 yards all last year and certainly can’t move enough to keep defenses honest.
-His experience has not shown any significant improvement agaisnt quality competition. The teams he inked out his 8 wins against last year were Mich St (who were plowed by an emotionally charged an angry Irish team) and then the likes of Pitt (in horrendous fashion), Purdon’t, Air Force, Navy, Wake (equally ugly win), Maryland, and BC (also horrendous). Thats it. Not exactly daunting. His “experience” hasnt given him any noticeable edge against USC or Stanford or even a CLEARLY beatable FSU team. Not exactly something that would help BK sleep at night.
Round 1 – Golson
I dont see how this is even a debate?? Rees as a true freshman and soph went 12 and 4 and won a bowl game. So he wasnt able to beat loaded Usc and stanford there wasnt many qbs who were able to. Rees so called regressions were just part of a young qb who was growing. if golson plays he end up like rob bolden at penn state. rd 1 to tyler
Thanks for the comment my man. We’ll keep trying to win you over. Golson commonly is compared to athletes who played QB, where we think he is a QB who is also an athlete. Golson appears to be a guy where running is a resort instead of a preference.
I feel like I’ve personally beaten this issue to death. A picture of a dead horse and a guy standing over it with a sledge hammer would be appropriately inserted here. Having said that:
1) Nothing is more nauseating than the “Tommy is 23-0 as a starter” nonsense. QB’ing isn’t pitching; football isn’t baseball. Period.
2) Citing Rees’ record as a starter is particularly galling when those who do so refuse to assign any blame to him when ND loses.
Exhibit A: UM game where he personally turned it over 3 times in the red zone. His supporters only talk about the fantastic drive he led to the go ahead TD and blame the D breakdown for the loss;
Exhibit B: USC: It wasn’t Tommy’s lousy play; it was Dayne Crist’s fault
Exhibit C: USF game where he played the entire 2nd half, threw 2 or 3 picks. But again, the loss was the fault of Theo Riddick, Dayne Crist, and everybody else but Rees.
3) I’ve been watching football for 50+ years and consider myself a very knowledgeable sports fan. I’ve played competitive sports all my life. I still do at age 58. When someone is a below average performer, regardless of the sport, and isn’t getting any better it just leaps off the screen at me. Tommy leaps off the screen. This is admittedly a subjective observation here, but the guy just doesn’t make anyone or his team better. In fact, he drags them DOWN. He’s like a pitcher on a great team who can’t get out of the 4th inning. Ever.
Time to move on.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080202231409/uncyclopedia/images/1/11/Beating-a-dead-horse.gif
Team Golson loves the support Nude. Even throwing a GIF up on the page! Well played sir. Great points on the losses. Feel free to throw his first full half against Tulsa and those 3 INTs in there pal.
What is being debated now really is the inertial effect of the Tommy Rees incumbency. Tommy has “experience” and so the staff need airtight reasons to change the QB now, given that Tommy has A) not been a complete disaster, but also B) he hasn’t set the world on fire. He’s been kind of “meh” and pretty dreadful against the top defenses he’s faced. Consider the last three games, BC, Stanford, and Florida State… uhgh. Given the trend alone I’m ready for a change, since I don’t see Tommy’s 40 yard dash time or his arm strength improving. If the argument comes down to experience and “decision making” trumping physical tools and explosiveness the level of “decision making” can’t just be average. It. Must. Be. Flawless. Tommy ain’t flawless in decision making and that is supposedly the edge he has on the other three.
Well said. Team Golson appreciated the support. Obviously Rees decision making has never teeterd on the “Must.Be.Flawless” ledge. Hard to imagine it will ever.
Well “flawless” might be too high a standard, but how about near flawless, less than 5 int on the season, say.
I think we’d settle for less than 10 turnovers total from any player.
Are you kidding me? You really support a run first gun slinging throw off your back foot quarterback who has never played a college football game over the experienced Tommy Rees? We all know Nd players are smarter then the average player so why are our fans even considering this move? Does anyone out there think that Tommy Rees doesn’t know he needs to work on his mobility? All players have strenghs and weaknesses. Tommy is smart enough to recognize this and I’m positve he is working to improve on this weakness. He does not have to run on every down just enough to keep defenses honest. Golson tries to make every play a highlight reel. I’m told he fumbles a ton in practice and doesn’t grasp the offense. Did you watch the Blue Gold game? They turned off the play clock because he couldn’t get the plays off on time! TKO in the first round. Tyler clearly wins.
Mike, I’m curious so I was hoping you might answer some questions. Like you, I think that junior year Tommy would likely be an improvement over sophomore year Tommy. But the question is how much improvement? Assuming 12 starts and no injuries how much improvement is likely in mobility? TR had something like -50 rushing yards and 0 rushing TD’s last season so I guess the law of averages practically requires that we see improvement here. I think for the Kelly offense to hum along nicely the QB should easily be able to get 150-200 rush yards on the season (less than 20 a game-keeping the D honest) and probably should be able to get the ball in 3-5 times a season on the ground. Is this something likely from TR? I kind of doubt it, but what would “keeping the D honest” look like with respect to an improved running threat from TR? 50 rush yards on the season? As far as turnovers TR had 14 INTS to go with I can’t find how many fumbles. What would constitute improvement on turnovers? Less than one per game? One every two games? I’m not asking to be a dick, I’m asking just to get a sense of your yardstick and how realistic a yardstick it is.
Tommy Rees, under zero circumstances ever, will force a defense “to be honest”. He lacks the agility and flexibility to run away from almost any defender at this level.
“Run first, sling off the back foot” quarterback? Ok …
Mike in PA,
That’s the easiest post on this subject to disassemble I’ve ever read.
And I’ve read them all on nearly every board.
1) What good is “experience” when the more of it he gathers the worse he gets?
I’ll go get a cigarette and wait patiently here for my answer. And I don’t even smoke.
2) Tell me how he will “work on his mobility”. He’s a slow white guy. That ain’t changing.
3) If Tommy is “smart enough to know he needs to work on this” then why was their zero improvement from the FSU Bowl game to the Blue Gold game? They called a QB draw for him and his execution was laughable. He threw a terrible INT before people were even in their seats; and overall he looked awful.
There are some things that none of us can change. I can be “smart enough to know” that I need to work on my tomahawk dunk all I want, but it’s never going to change the fact that I can NOT dunk the ball.
Steve,
I think that a realistic yardstick for TR for the season is 30 yards per game. Keep in mind that we are going to crush people this year in the running game. This line is experienced and getting better and better. They will open some holes that even TR can run through. Please understand that I don’t dislike Golson I just don’t think he has a solid grasp of the offense. Here is thought that I would love to have some feedback on. If TR wins the qb job what will become of Golson and Hendrix? We all know that Gunner is the heir apparent to the qb job. Will or should they Transfer? Any thoughts? Do we have to many quarterbacks?
It will be a cold day in hell when Tommy Rees has over 30 yards rushing in a single game. Like Tyler pointed out, the offense doesn’t need that, but 10-15 would be very nice. To average 30 yards per game the QB would need multiple LONG runs during the season to keep the average that high. I have a hard time believing Tommy will ever have a rush over 10 yards because he can be closed on so fast and will never break a tackle.
The Golson/Hendrix dilemma is a whole different series. It all depends on what happens when. Golson seems candidate #1 for a transfer if he’s not at least a co-starter coming out of camp and few would blame him. Hendrix is pre-med and making the move with only 1 FBS years of eligibility in a transfer might not be worth it in that “40 year decision” mold. It’s also not absurd to think Golson could make a Hines Ward like position change to the slot and become an X factor with a set of his own “Wildcat” plays. In regards to Gunner … I don’t think we know anything except he’s the most likely redshirt as the other 3 shake it all out.
I don’t see Golson switching positions. The only viable place for him is slot, and I think they have about 18 of those already.
I’ve written this on Keith Arnold’s board, but the obvious candidate for a position switch AFTER THIS YEAR is Andrew Hendrix. He looks to me like a guy who could play safety on Sundays at some point. Great athlete and will have 2 yrs of eligibility left.
Several months back I’d have said “pleeeeeease NOOOOO” about Golson xferring. But frankly if he can’t win the job now and play respectably with the shot he is being given then he’s never going to be much good. And GK and Zaire will soon overtake him anyway.
I agree with half of this nude. The Safety position at ND looks to be a point of strength for 2014/14/15 if even 2 of the 5-6 young players there pan out. I’ve always been bullish on Hendrix and his abilities. Maybe he’s a practice guy, but the tape I’ve seen never adds up to the printed and spoken praise. Just me.
Also with Golson, I’d predict a transfer over a position change, just saying it wouldn’t shock. That RB/Slot position may see as many as 4 guys on the field at a time with a 6-8 man rotation. There are snaps to be had.
Agree with Steve. Zero chance he rushes for 30 yards/game.
And in fact I don’t think that’s even relevant.
He’s not a runner, and if that was the only issue, no big deal.
But it isn’t.
He makes terrible decisions.
He had 19 turnovers last year.
He has shown no signs of improvement (look at the Blue Gold game)
He can’t avoid a rush.
He makes no one better.
In fact he makes them worse, individually and as an entire offense.
There is not a single top 30 team he could start for. Not one.
Other than that … terrific ballplayer.
What ever happened to supporting the starting qb no matter what? This sounds like a lynch mob! Are you a Notre Dame fan or not?
Mike I WILL draw the line in the sand that this is the offseason and I will NEVER EVER EVER be a guy that cheers against a single ND player because of my own agenda in regards to things I think, write, or say. I’m all-in with every player on the field at all times.
In the summer months of a QB controversey this kind of stuff is fun, informative, and what I’d like to think fans want to read and talk about. I appreciate that comment because this series certainly isn’t about dividing the fan base, but rather voicing opinions.
Steve,
Thanks for the comments. I love the bantering in regards to the qb situation. I knew there were some people out there that didn’t believe that TR was right man for the job but I had no idea that there were that many out there. 12-4 as a starter no matter who you play is a solid record. I can’t wait for the next two questions.